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Ferre
Cannabis Sacrament Minister.
Joined: 14 Apr 2003
Posts: 7295
Location: Amsterdam
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 Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2004 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Trip wrote: |
| I'm just curious, I'm not as well versed as some in the bible(working on improving that), but who then tempted Jesus for 40 days and 40 nights? In revelations, whom is it that gets banished for a thousand years, and thrown in a pit of fire? Was all of this added by the church? Just curious... |
Bro, the complete book is written by the church.
They got their inspiration from the Gnostic religion, that happened to be there already for decades when the founders of the "church" desided that the whole idea of having a religion could be very profitable and at the same time keep the peasants in control.
Ever heard of Ron Hubbard? In fact is what he did the same thing, only he has a complete different concept of course, but the basic idea is the same. You write a book and get people to follow your idea's. Remember Oshin? (Bagwan) He is worshipped too for his writings, has many followers and in a few hundred years from now will be regarded as a holy man also. Everything is relative, specially religion.
If you really want to know about the origin of the bible you need to study the gnostic scriptures and you'll be amazed what a load of crap they turned it in to when they wrote that book. You will also find out that there are many more scriptures then the dead sea rolls but the "church" choose not to ever mention them.
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Rev. Chazman
Cannabis Sacrament Minister
Joined: 15 Nov 2003
Posts: 1403
Location: Illinois - USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2004 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| kytaira wrote: |
Hey Chaz,
(I'm not trying to argue, I just like the discussion!) I'm not blaming the evil in my life on some big nasty evil thing. I Choose to do the things in my life that I have done or will do. I agree we each are our own devil, But maybe, just maybe, since we are made in His image, that he is imperfect as well and is also a devil unto himself. As I stated before, it could evenbe his bad side for all we know. But all I know, is no matter how far back you go, every God of good has had some evil counterpart, whether its roman, japanese, greek, or whatever. Occasionally a religion comes along with an image that has no good or evil like Buddhism, but those religions usually do not deal with an afterlife of any kind. There may not be a Devil specifically, but there is something there. Not just an excuse. If the bad things in life cannot be blamed on Satan, then how can you honestly attribute the good things to God? Is it not still the decisions YOU have made that have given you the good things as well? So then are we all our own GODS as well as are own devils? Not trying to offend, like I stated before, I enjoy discussions of these natures, you can learn and teach alot all at the same time.
So, until I check back later, Adieu
Rev. Anthony
Maybe! lol |
My brother, you are so close to a great revelation I think....
You are right that we do choose our paths. You are correct that in ancient history there are many references to evil forces as well as good in the pantheons of ancient religion.
Now keeping that in mind, remember that my point is that we were as infants then religiously , as well as psychologically. We as a race needed to figure out the complexities of human nature in some way we could understand. That’s why in ancient pantheons there were Gods & Spirits attributed to all the various emotions and sins of man, so that we could say we were guided(or led astray) by these various influences.
But we matured. And slowly we lost our need for these many beings because they didn’t exist anyway. Slowly we came to realize there is only one God. But we hadn’t yet lost our need to explain away our problems and failures. So we kept our devils & demons, because even though we had grown... we were still immature.
So we continued to learn, evolve & explore the human psyche and the universe around us. We are now able to shine the light of knowledge, logic and reason into those dark places of our minds in a way that we weren’t truly ready for until now. And as we shine that light, the shadows of superstition dissipate.
You ask "If the bad things in life cannot be blamed on Satan, then how can you honestly attribute the good things to God?"
Ah again I say you are so close. Indeed life is life. Good and bad things happen equally to good and bad people. Its a natural course of events in the tapestry of life. If I believe God sometimes intercedes to help in a crucial moment. Must I also believe that when something particularly bad happens the devil is behind it? No, not at all.
God the father has given us life. Its is full of ups and downs. If, in his love for us, He sometimes chooses to aid us, this is not unusual. Just as a parent will sometimes let a child make his or her own mistakes to learn from, God often leaves us to our free will choice. But also like parent, God will sometimes step in when we need him most, often without even being asked.
But bad things happen to. Must there not also be a devil then? No my brother. Bad things happen to good people sometimes. The thing people have to realize is that God has given as free will, he has given us life, he hasn’t given us a guarantee that life will be sweet and without pain. But that’s life, its not a devil sticking a metaphoric pitchfork in our backs to follow a path of evil.
While God does help sometimes when we are in need, he doesn’t always step in. Why? Again he has given us life, free will and all that goes along with them. What most people fail to understand is that when bad things happen, God hasn’t abandoned them. The devil hasn’t won that battle. You see God doesn’t control every aspect of our lives. Here again if he did there would be no reason for free will.
The best way to describe what happens is with an example.
A young innocent child gets sick, and dies. People are sad, or course. Some wonder "why would God make such a thing happen?"
He doesn’t "make" it happen. Neither does the devil. It happens because its a part of life. So you might ask "but how could a merciful God allow it to happen?"
Here is the thing that’s we need to grasp. "allow" is true in that God didn’t intercede to stop it from happening. But the natural course of life is what actually happened. Its sad to us. But lets look at it from Gods perspective. God has given us life, and also immortal souls. When we die its not an end in the eyes of God. Merely a transition to our immortal self. So nothing is lost in Gods eye. We continue, with God, we are not at an end. Since we don’t truly end, from Gods perspective, Its not as though there is a loss to him. For our souls go on, with him. So knowing life is but a shadow of everlasting life, God needn’t feel the grief that we do on Earth.
You ask "Is it not still the decisions YOU have made that have given you the good things as well? So then are we all our own GODS as well as are own devils?"
Yes our lives are shaped by our decisions. Good or ill. BUT as a people, a collective group of brothers and sisters living on Mother Earth, we must also work for good or ill.
We have it in our power to end world suffering, or continue on as we are. We have the ability to CHOOSE whether to kill our neighbor, but also we have to ability to choose to unite and focus our attentions on feeding the hungry, ending war and illness.
Its as a people, a whole united people that we achieve the goal God has hoped for us. Life and all the troubles we’ve had, still have, are the crucible that we are being forged in to hopefully achieve the world wide unity that is our "coming of age" in Gods eye.
So yes, in small ways we individually achieve small miracles that shine like small blessings of God.
And yes, we continue to do things that are totally the opposite that are evil and Satan like.
Its the nature of our yet to be fulfilled potential that we are both the light of Gods hope for us, and the dark of our own wayward path that we assign to our scapegoat devils.
But no we aren’t Gods. We have a piece of his light in each of us, but we aren’t Gods. I think that if we all pulled together. And as a united people ended our own problems. Learned to stand together and call each other brother. Take responsibility for our own actions. Then Gods plan.. no Hope is a better word, for us will be realized. And at that point I think we will be able to look into the face of God and he will welcome us as the complete and whole beings he always hoped we might become.
Its to that ends I believe we must work. We have the ability to make ourselves into the image that God holds for us. But we also have the ability to choose to remain ignorant and lost in our infancy and never reach this mature state. But should we succeed.... we would then truly be able to look into the face of God and know him in ways we only dream of now.
But he has given us the choice to decide for ourselves whether we will achieve this or not. The first step is to put aside all the superstitions mixed into our religions and see our love of God, and his dream for us, for what it is.
Then we must conquer our personal demons(the only ones that exist) as a whole people, not just as individuals. Our greatest thinkers and spiritual teachers approach this sometimes.
We will then realize that to end the suffering of our brothers the world over is all of our responsibility.. not just that of a few. Then, as one united people, miraculous things will start to happen. Diseases will be ended, there will be no hunger. Ignorance and superstitions will be at an end. No longer will we fear our neighbor or covet something he has that we don’t. Instead we will rejoice in our differences and learn from them, there will be no want, so there will be no need to covet. We will all be better individuals. But more importantly we will be a united people worthy of the blessings of God.
Peace 
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I praise good thoughts, good words, and good deeds and those that are to be thought, spoken, and done. I do accept all good thoughts, good words, and good deeds. I do renounce all evil thoughts, evil words, and evil deeds. ---Avesta: Yasna
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kytaira
Cannabis Sacrament Minister
Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Posts: 273
Location: Manitoba, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2004 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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I have but one real problem with the theories you have:
We have been created in his image, his likeness. So, If WE are imperfect, then it is pheasable that God, through his own free will, would be an imperfect being as well. He chooses when to intercede and when not too. I have gotten that much, but what says HIS free will choices are any more good or evil than those that we make. So in essence He would be very much a demon unto himself as well. Because it is the free will that creates the demons that you speak of. And, of my statement that we are all our own gods, the bible tells us contantly to look within yourself to find god. (Which in essence means look inside yourself to find absolutely all the good that you can do in your lifetime, and do it, and you will be as god is.) But if all things once attributed to gods have since been explained away by science, philosophy, and other influences that have blurred the original aspects of religions, then is not possible that these same people will one day explain away god himself and simply attribute other more tangible reasons for the very belief of gods at all. It is the fact that people believe in these things that makes them real to them I understand that also. I just cannot see the balance in your ideas. I do not believe that good can exist without evil, and vice versa. Again it just falls into the balance of all things.
(side note) Ever read "Memnoch the Devil"- by Anne Rice? Throws an interesting spin on the ideas of satan and the holy wars waged between he and god. Kinda cool. One of her best!
Rev. Anthony
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What I know could fill a book or two, but what I hope to learn could fill a library or two..... |
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Meghan
Cannabis Sacrament Minister
Joined: 10 Jul 2004
Posts: 22
Location: Upstate NY
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| Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| why does everyone act as thought there are only 2 choices? There is more than just Bush and Kerry, I know they say if you vote for Nader than you are wasting your vote, but if everyone stopped believing that it wouldn't be true. We shouldn't allow the 2 parties control everything, they haven't done a great job thus far why do you keep electing them? So, just remember Nader is there too... |
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Lilli
Cannabis Sacrament Minister
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 4218
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| Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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He isnt even going to be on the ballot in my state. And I am sure my state is not alone.
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