Christianity Differences;

Rev.DeGray2 · Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 12:49 am Post subject: Christianity Differences;

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Reflections on Liberty at Christmastime
by Jacob G. Hornberger, December 2000
ONE OF THE biggest differences between Christian statists and Christian libertarians concerns the role of the state in matters pertaining to morality. Christian statists believe that the state should be God's partner who ensures, through fines and imprisonment, that people follow the correct moral path. Christian libertarians, on the other hand, believe that the state should protect the exercise of all choices, moral and immoral, so long as they do not involve the use of force or fraud against another person.
Both Christian statists and Christian libertarians agree that it is morally wrong to initiate force or fraud against another person. Thus, they oppose such acts as murder, rape, and theft, and they agree that the state should punish such misconduct.
The difference between Christian statists and Christian libertarians lies then in the realm of nonviolent and nonfraudulent choices. Statists, for example, believe that the state should coerce people into pursuing what might be considered to be a moral course of action, such as helping the poor. If a person resists the coercion — by refusing to pay his taxes, for example — statists believe that the state should prosecute and punish him. Statists also believe that the state should punish people who pursue what statists consider an immoral course of conduct that involves only peaceful action, such as drug abuse.
Libertarians, on the other hand, believe that people should be free to pursue either moral or immoral courses of action, again as long as the choices do not entail force or fraud against someone else. They want the state to punish only those who initiate force or fraud against others, such as murderers, rapists, thieves, and the like.
If you were to ask a Christian whether a person should help a person in need, the general answer, for both statists and libertarians, would be that yes, that would be the moral thing to do. Of course, each person would have a different interpretation of what "need" means and might very well arrive at a different conclusion as to whether help should be provided in each particular circumstance.

The importance of free will
Libertarians believe that these choices should ultimately be left to each individual to make on his own. Suppose someone is starving to death in the street. Should you help him out? Libertarians say that that choice is yours and yours alone. What if you choose not to help? Libertarians might condemn your choice from a moral standpoint but they would fight to protect your right to make it.
Suppose a gang approached and threatened to force you to help the starving person. Libertarians would stand against the gang's attempt to coerce you into making the "right" choice. Again, what ultimately matters to the libertarian is that you have the right to choose, one way or the other.
For the Christian libertarian, there can be no other alternative. He believes that the very nature of free will, the great gift that God has bestowed upon man, entails the right to say no. God may want people to follow him and he may want people to love their neighbor, but free will entails the right to reject God and to reject one's neighbor. It is the gift of free will that drives the Christian libertarian to protect the exercise of a choice that he himself might not make if he were faced with the same situation.
The Christian statist takes a very different view. He would agree that on a private basis, people should be free to decide whether to help the poor or not. But he also believes that the state should have the authority to intervene in the process and, in fact, should intervene to ensure that a person makes the "right" choices during a large portion of his life. In other words, the Christian statist would never say that the state should be responsible for all of a person's moral choices, just a large percentage of them and that the state should have the authority to make these determinations.
This, of course, is one idea behind government's providing welfare, public housing, food, and education to the poor in society. It's also a driving force behind Social Security. Christian statists believe that since it is morally right that people help their parents and the poor, it is also morally right to force people to help them by means of state intervention.
The process works in the following manner. Christian statists proclaim that since the United States is predominantly a Christian nation, most people believe that it is morally correct that people share their money with the needy. Therefore, a political vote is taken in which a certain amount of money is taxed from everyone in society and then the state distributes the money to the poor.
Everyone, according to Christian statists, is thus acting in a Christian fashion — the voter, the legislator, the tax collector, and the welfare bureaucrat. Also the judges and the law-enforcement officers who stand ready to punish anyone who resists the process, for example by refusing to pay taxes. Even people who don't vote or who oppose the entire process but whose money is taken from them anyway are considered moral, caring, and compassionate simply for being members of a society that has voted to set up a political structure to help the poor and the elderly. Everyone is acting in a Christian manner because the government is working in partnership with God to ensure that people are doing the right thing by helping people through the state's tax-and-welfare system.
From the standpoint of the Christian libertarian, there are big problems with this entire process. First, there is the denigration of God's sacred gift of free will. Under the statist paradigm, the individual's right to say no is destroyed. Everyone's choices are collectivized through the electoral process that sets up and then maintains a political system in which people are taxed to help the poor.

Doing good with other people's money
There is also the moral problem involved in taking money from someone against his will in order to "do good" with it. And there is always the dangerous temptation to begin paying as much homage to the state as the Christian pays to God, if not more.
Under the libertarian paradigm, each person keeps his own money and makes his own choices to help the poor. Faced with a multitude of poor people, one person might give away everything he owns during the course of his lifetime. Another person might pick and choose according to the circumstances of each situation. A third might refuse to help anyone, preferring to keep everything he owns for himself.
Under the statist paradigm, all this is destroyed, at least to the extent that the state taxes each person. If the state confiscates 30 percent of a person's income in order to give the money to the poor, then to that extent each person's range of personal choices has been destroyed.
The statist would argue that since "society" votes to set up the entire system in the first place, the situation is, for all practical purposes, the same as if each person had made these decisions on a private basis. But is it? For one thing, some people don't vote. Also, once the system of state coercion is set up, each person no longer is faced with a stream of daily choices. No longer must he struggle with his conscience as situations arise during the course of his life. "Should I help that person or not?" "What about that one — is he deserving or not?"
And what about the person who would prefer not to help the poor at all? The only response the statist has is, "He should want to help the poor and we're helping him do so through the power of the state. We're making him moral whether he wants to be or not."
The irony is that by having the state become an equal partner with God, the statist could very well end up with a society whose level of conscience and consciousness diminishes. For as people's range of choices is constantly diminished by coercion, the process of personal struggle that comes with individual choices is also diminished, causing the conscience to atrophy.
In other words, if people are being taxed by the state to the tune of 30 percent of their income so that the state can use the money to help the poor, over time the temptation might very well become, "Why should I donate any more of my money when I'm already helping the poor with 30 percent in the taxes I pay?"
Christmastime, of course, is a perfect time for Christians to reflect not only on the birth of Christ but also on the issue of moral judgments, liberty, and coercion. And some very important moral questions for every Christian to ponder are: (1) Should a Christian be supporting a system that forces people to do the "right" thing? (2) How can morality have any meaning when actions are the product of coercion rather than free and voluntary choice? (3) Who is behaving morally when the state helps the poor? (4) Is a state system of tax-and-welfare destructive of free will and, if so, should Christians be supporting it?
Perhaps it might be helpful to examine how Christ himself viewed the matter. Recall the story of the young rich man who approached Jesus and told him that he was following all the commandments and wanted to know whether there was anything else he could do to win eternal life. Jesus replied that the young man should sell everything he had, give it to the poor, and follow him. From the perspective of the young man, Jesus was asking too much and he walked away dejectedly.
What was Jesus' reaction to the man's rejection? While Jesus undoubtedly would have preferred a different answer, he respected the young man's right to say no. Unlike Christian statists today, Jesus understood that that is the nature of free will — the right to say no. He knew that if a person doesn't have the right to say no to God and to his neighbor, then the great gift of free will means nothing.
Equally important, unlike Christian statists today, Jesus didn't summon state officials and demand that they take the man's money and distribute it to the poor. Jesus knew that if he did that, that also would be denigrating and destroying God's gift of free will.
In an era of economic prosperity, the obvious question is: Why should the American people dismantle such governmental programs as Social Security, welfare, education grants, and foreign aid? One answer, of course, is that through the dismantling of these types of governmental programs, people will be even more prosperous. But the more important answer is that it would be the Christian thing to do.

Mr. Hornberger is founder and president of The Future of Freedom Foundation.
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Much Love and Respect,

Sincerely Rev. DeGray 2

Rev.DeGray2 · Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 12:51 am Post subject: Re;

I found that at www.fff.org Future of Freedom Foundation just so ya know the site.
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Much Love and Respect,

Sincerely Rev. DeGray 2

meek_mike · Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 7:20 am Post subject: Right or Wrong

I don't know much about diffrent kinds of Christians. I know there out there, but never did pay much attention to them. All Chriatians have the same rule. When Christ came and relieved us from the Laws that we could not up hold he made a new law it is summed up in one sentence: Love your neighbour as yourself. So every Christian no matter what kind of Christian have the obligation to help everyone. The question should be do Christians doing enough? The obviouse answer is no. We have to much hunger in the US. We have to much poverty in the US. Christians should be doing more. We have the free will to make our own decision but are we making the right ones. I as a Christian know I don't do all I can. Everyday I pass a person standing on the side of the street asking for money. Although I can't afford to give money away I have things that I can afford to give away. Like food, cloths, a smile or a kind word. If I as a minister don't do all that I can for people why would the common Christian do so. There is no excuse for not helping people, we can all afford to help and by doing so we fufill the law God has provide for us. By fulfilling th law we make God happy. There is a verse in the bible that says something like: what you do for any of these people you really do for me. If we are really doing it for God wouldn't you want to do it more often. I know I will, I once heard a statement that know makes more sence to me. Random acts of Kindness. I plan on doing that more often. If I am suppose to love my neighbour as myself, I think tomorrow I might pick up someone that is walking in the hot Phx sun and give them a ride to where they need to go. Who knows I might even pick up a smoker and I can share with them some sacrament and a few words about the ministry. How can you help others?

Rev. Michael T.

**Ferre** · Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 10:32 am Post subject:

In my humble opinion, and luckely in Holland our laws reflect this, the state has no busyness in "moralising" the people. Here in Holland that's 'not done'.

The state makes laws to protect the country and the people but does not make laws based on 'moral', as this is none of their busyness and a task for parents, not the state.

for excample, the personal use of drugs is not illegal in Holland, if we want to take a drug we can do that without legal consequenses, whatever drug it is, as long as we don't bother others with it. I'm allowed to grow weed (4 plants), I am allowed to use cocaine if I want to (bad drug, btw) or any other drug. When I am found with a small amount of drugs on me (1-2 grams), whatever the drug is, I will not get procecuted because the state does not have the right to make any laws to moralize the public.

Does this make Holland a country where everyone is on drugs? NO, in fact, statistics prove the opposite, compaired with other countries drug use in our country is with the lowest on this planet. (Holland 4%, US, 15%)

Christians, in general, are tempted to interfere with other people's busyness and put their morals on everyone else, one of the main reasons it's never been very popular in our country, where the majority is muslim, btw. (amsterdam, 60%)

"Morals" designed by Christians are usually a little over the top and the "fear and punishment" concept they seem to need is another thing we are happy to live without.

Of course we have laws to prevent murders and stealing, but no one is allowed to tell us how to live or what to do as long as we don't bother others, and specially not the state. They represent the people, not the other way around, and with Christians making laws the people turn into sheap that are told how to live and what to think. For us, Christians can be very extreme, way too extreme to run a country, or make laws so we have laws to seperate state and church.
I went to (bording) school in Belgium for a few years, where they do not have this seperated and Catholics have had a great influence on the laws and I found they often miss "tolerance", something our country is known for.

I miss that in Christianity, "tolerance", and as I was raised to respect others, I found way too little of that in Christian politics. Bush and the US is an excellent example of this, "They know what's best for us" and deside to be the police of the world, without asking anyone if we want, or need that. They also abuse their power towards everyone who does not agree with them. In my humble opinion, "Christian politics" often can be translated with "fascist politics"... And we don't need that.

Don't forget it is people who claim to be "Good Christians" that are responcable for the "war on drugs", It's also a self proclaimed "good Christian" who invaded Iraq, dropped tons of nuclear waste on the civillian population, bombed their churches, all in the name of his christian god, as he was repeating over and over.

People are dying from aids in Africa, but the Pope told those people not long ago it's not good to use condoms, because of Christian "moral reasons".

Again, we don't need that crap on this planet.

just my two cents.
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HvyFuel · Cannabis Sacrament Minister Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 291

One of the things I have been wanting to say from the beginning is that we are ministers of the Universal Life Church which accepts all denominations and yet any casual reader would believe we are Christian fundamentalists of the worst kind.

I understand the reasons for posting extracts from any holy book which support our aims but many appear to be simply furthering individual beliefs. If a member believes Cannabis to be the a Sacred plant I don't care if they worship pink spotted zebras but I don't want to read it here as if it were the opinion of The Ministry.

I'm not attacking anyone, as the saying goes 'I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it'. So how about a section in the forum which is clearly labelled as individuals beliefs and not Ministry policy? Ferre is Muslim, I feel Roger leans towards Christianity rather than embracing it, so none could say they were being biased if they chose to move posts to this new section.

Don't know if this was the right place for this post but it's here now. I apologize to Rev. DeGray if you think I am slighting your beliefs in any way, my words were not even a direct response to your post and I have the deepest respect for all peoples beliefs.

And while I'm talking, 'fascist' is an extremely strong word Ferre. You might want to look to Islamic Saudi Arabia and Bahrain or Jewish Israel before throwing that vile word at western states. And people who call themselves 'good christians' may have started the war on drugs but people who call themselves 'good muslims' are blowing up civilians all over the world at the moment. I'm saying this as a devil's advocate, I neither believe all Muslims are terrorists or all Christians are moralizing do-gooders.

If we as THC Ministers, all with a common bond and goal, can't stop bickering about our individual beliefs and trying to force our beliefs on others, what hope is there?
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**Ferre** · Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 1:22 pm Post subject:

I agree with you there, brother, though to make it clear, I'm not a muslim, my only believes are based on the positive influence Cannabis has on my spirituality and our invironment and yes you are right, many extremists embrass fascist customs, and it's always wrong, whatever "label" is sticked on it. Western states are just as wrong when they introduce fascism as Israel is, or any other country, and at present times, we have way too much of it, it's everywhere.

I use the word "fascism" because that's what it is and somehow people don't always recognise it when it isn't coming from their own representatives and is not labelled as such. Good excample is the Patriot act in the US, copied from the nazi's in the 1930's but not even the American congressmen who supported it realised the true meaning and consequenses that it stands for. And when they did, it's even worse.

Every time someone mentiones Christian misbehaviour there will be someone else pointing out how bad the muslims are but that's not the issue, it's all wrong and pointing at others isn't the way to get a solution either. Fact is that western states are introducing fascist customs at a scary paste. In the UK, EVERY Phone call and SMS is monitored, in the name of "Terrorists prevention". spying on the people by a government is fascism, not a nice word, but I did not invent it, I just refuse to give it another name to make it acceptable.

You made a good point about THC Ministry forums looking like a Christian (fanatics) board when you get confronted by all those bible quotes, specially when you think of the fact that it's the same book written somewhere in history as a tool to control people and prevent them from exploring their own spirituality, anyway, that's how I look at it.
I also have found that some of our members have leaved because of the bible quotes dominating a great part of our topics and it's been discussed at the (hidden) moderator board. Point is that we accept all religions, and do not want to censor, We do, however, ask people to reply messages with their own point of view, instead of quoting the bible when it's not relevant. ( And it usually isn't.)
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HvyFuel · Cannabis Sacrament Minister Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 291

I accept your interpretation of the word 'fascist' and even looked it up,
"The State not only is authority which governs and moulds individual wills with laws and values of spiritual life, but it is also power which makes its will prevail abroad. ...For the Fascist, everything is within the State and ... neither individuals or groups are outside the State. ...For Fascism, the State is an absolute, before which individuals or groups are only relative."
To me the word is as ugly as the doctrine and any administration which would introduce laws such as 'The Patriot Act' probably deserves it. I just feel it is too frequently used against anyone in authority who does something people don't like.

Every mobile phone is monitored everywhere in the world, even if your own government isn't doing it you can be damn sure someone else is. I have no doubt in my mind that our conversations here are checked regularly. And it's invasion of privacy, and it disgusts me, but we must admit culpability by our eagerness to use technology that can be spied upon so easily. If you had an emoticon of a guy shrugging his shoulders I'd put it here.

I agree also with your point 'Christian behaviour' and 'Muslim behaviour' though I must wonder why it was necessary to call the Netherlands a Muslim country, when it's actually 52% Christian, 5.3% Muslim, and then launch an attack on Christian governments. You have a Christian government Ferre so whatever it is in the minds of Bush, Blair, et al, Christianity isn't the problem.

I'm sat here defending something I don't believe in. I am a member of no church. I agree with the parables of Jesus, but I think the rest of the bible is the best known fictional work ever. I'd love to be a Buddhist but I love a good steak. I was a even New Age witch for a few years until I discovered how modern paganism was invented. In fact, about the only thing that held my drifting faith is Cannabis. In that I have total faith.

You mention people leaving because of the overt Christian bias and I'm not surprised. I very nearly didn't bother reading it. Which is more the problem, a majority of the people we are trying to attract take one look and run. I don't want you to censor anything, I don't believe it's in your nature to so, my suggestion was to distance The Ministry from monotheism. Either by creating new sections in the forum or by posting a disclaimer stating The Ministry does not endorse the private beliefs stated on the forum. I only go on about this because I think we're scaring people away. Which is the last thing we can afford to do.

I hope this isn't being taken personally by anyone, I assure you it isn't meant that way.

peace Smile

p.s. before you jump down my throat about the Netherlands religion...
http://www.lonelyplanet.com/destinations/europe/netherlands/
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Lilli · Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 5:50 pm Post subject:

Lilli · Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 6:19 pm Post subject:

I just found this on one of the juggalo boards.

sibannac · Cannabis Sacrament Minister Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 456

There are two differences one is good the other not difference is good otherwise we'd have nothing to talk about. Indifference is not we should never be indifferent to anything or anyone.
Be kind live free love life.
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meek_mike · Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 6:38 am Post subject: All in All

I got on here to write just a few minutes ago but I couldn't write. I had to pray for guidance from our creator. It deeply hurts me to see so many people that have a bad imprestion of Christians. I can't make up for the bad things so many Christians have done to so many people. The only thing I can do is offer my story. My earthly Father is a Baptist minister when I was 15 I started to smoke cannabis. For the first few years I pulled it off. My father never had a clue that I was smoking. My school work got better because I saw that if my school work got bad he would suspect I was on drugs just like every parent that see's there kids grades slip from B's to D's. It couldn't be that they are just not good at the subject it always has to be drugs. Why, I don't know. Well one day a friend of mine got caught smoking. His parents just so happen to make the comment why can't you be more like th pastors son. That didn't go over good to him since I sold to him and smoked a whole lot more than he did. That was the breaking point for my father, I was disowned. A pastors son that didn't have a dad. Who could I turn to, the only one that had been there for me the whole time. Jesus, I had my bad years where I couldn't see God working in my life. All I could see was I had six roommates in a two room apartment. Every one of them didn't have a jobs or a spiritual life. But for some reason they flocked to me. It could have been the free room in board but I look at things a little diffrently. There is a prayer by DMX that says "If it takes me to suffer for my brother to see the light. GIVE ME PAIN TILL I DIE, because I know Lord you'll treat them right." That was a punch to my face. I had been doing God's work this whole time. After I realized that I was on the right path of living I went back to church. The first Sunday I went I brought everyone I lived with. They had seen the way I lived and how happy I was and wanted to find out more about it. It's just to bad we all smoked on the drive to church. I have always said it is a spiritual plant and puts you in the right state of mind to worship the creator. When we walked through the doors everyone turned around and I could tell didn't agree about the plant they smelled on us. The pastor of the church had enough balls to walk up to me a person he had know for a long time through my father and tell me and my friends to leave because we were disrupting the church service. All we did was walk in. From that point on I knew I had a mission in life. I and my friends did nothing wrong, we were all there to listen and here what the pastor had to say. The next week something happened to me that was very strange. In my head and not my own voice I use in it something said BE PREPARED. It was very strange. I literaly sat there saying to my self who said that. So since no one was in my appartment at that time and I look at thing a little diffrently I say it was God telling me to be prepared. Be prepared for what thou. That night I found out. Some bad things happened and I thought I was going to bury a petifile in the desert. The though crossed my mind many times that night. When I relized I wasn't going crazy and I did hear God telling me to be prepared I delt with the problem. I also remember the verse of the pray I had said to my many roommates. If it takes me to suffer. That is exactly what was happening. I went through many trials and tribulations. The last trial I went through was the death of my son. It hurt just to talk about it. But all my life I had the faith that God has a purpose things don't just happen for the shit of it. These things were happening in my life because I was strong enough to take them. At that moment I was about to curse God when I had the revalation that I was strong enough to take all that this plant had to offer as long as I had God. He had always been my back bone. He had always gotten me out of the many troubled situation I had been in. If God had helped me in the past to get through and over things God can help me get over the lose of my son. My wife didn't take it so easy, she questioned why these things had been happening. It was very hard to explain that she had married a man that has total faith in the creator of all things God. That all these things where happening because it helps us to grow stronger for later happening. Three months go by and life got back to normal, when a friend of ours lost her only daughter. She had no one, so my wife made it a point to help her through what my wife had been through. This lady was on the verge of suicide but because my wife had been through the same thing she listened to her. My wife stopped her from taking her own life and she realized why we lost our son. It was to give the life back to this lady. Again it take me and my family to suffer for my brother/sister to see the light. We were blessed with another child this year and she just so happened to be on Easter. It was like a sign for me. A comfort from God himself right to me. I had made it through all my trials and the ones that happen in the future I know I'll be able to handle them with grace. All this to say one thing your right Lilli God isn't in the church he is every where and as long as you have faith in him everything will always be A O K. We have to go through the things of our past because if we didn't we wouldn't be the thing we are today. I can't speak for all Christian I can only speak for myself. I do not Judge, because I know I would be found guilty. I do not put down, because my whole life I felt like I was the bottom. I don't blame God for the problems that I make for myself. I help where I can and I tell everyone I can what God has done for me. If thats Bible thumping concerder me the rabbit from bambi. I saw in the above letters that some don't like the Bible verses posted. That's fine for me, I won't post anymore. But when someone agree's with what I say and think it's a good theory of life to live by just remember if it's from me it's most likely a saying from the Bible. God bless all. May the power of the living God be present in all our lifes.

Rev. Michael T.
Solider for Christ and Cannabis

**dan** · Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 5:14 pm Post subject: Re: All in All

**dan** · Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 7:30 pm Post subject:

P.S mary just remined me that less than 2 years after our daughters death her cousin had a baby with the same condition survive, as is now very common with this condition.

peace
dan
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**Ferre** · Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 9:19 pm Post subject:

Lilli · Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 9:51 pm Post subject:

Mike that was beautiful. Thank you for sharing. I too have been put on the path of ministering to others who have lost a child since my sons death. God has me in such a precious place with him right now. I am very thankful to him for it. Yes cannabis has helped me also,since I was 13. I will continue to worship the creater of it and all things. And today I am thanking him for you and your life expierence Mike. Hugs to you and the Mrs. sincerely Lilli
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