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Stokes
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 Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:58 pm Post subject: Burning Shiva: The Cruci-Fiction / An Easter Special |
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All of modern Christianity revolves around and relies upon the events surrounding the Lord's crucifiction.
In this controversial episode of Burning Shiva, Chris Bennett explores the long standing theory that the resurrection of Jesus after death on the cross was a hoax accomplished by Jesus ingesting a soporofic potion, possibly containing cannabis, in order to put himself into a deathlike trance.
In my mind, this theory is perhaps the most plausible scientific explanation of Jesus Christ's crucifiction available.
Enjoy it.
http://www.pot-tv.net/archive/shows/pottvshowse-1751.html
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Last edited by Stokes on Mon Apr 24, 2006 1:15 am; edited 2 times in total |
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prntrkmt
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 11:12 pm Post subject: Re: Burning Shiva: The Cruci-Fiction / An Easter Special |
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| stokes wrote: |
All of Christianity revolves around and relys upon the events surrounding the Lord's crucifiction.
In this controversial episode of Burning Shiva, Chris Bennett explores the long standing theory that the resurrection of Jesus after death on the cross was a hoax accomplished by Jesus ingesting a soporofic potion, possibly containing cannabis, in order to put himself into a deathlike trance.
In my mind, this theory is perhaps the most plausible scientific explanation of Jesus Christ's crucifiction available. |
Actually the most plausible scientific explanation is that Jesus was a myth with no basis in historical fact.
In the year 2000 the major Christian religions held the Jesus Seminar. It was extremely well funded for a five to ten year examination of all of the words of Jesus with the intent to scientifically divide them into three categories: words Jesus definitely said, words Jesus may have said, and words Jesus definitely didn't say.
The Jesus Seminar included top scientists, historians, archaeologists, and bible scholars from all of the major Christian groups other than the Southern Baptists (who refused to participate on the belief that the Bible had to be accepted on faith as the true and only word of god). This included the Orthodox, Coptic, Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, Anglican, and other major Christian groups.
After just a few weeks the Jesus Seminar broke up because they could find ZERO evidence meeting scientific standards (contemporary historical or archaeological data) to support the claim that Jesus even existed.
Obviously if they couldn't establish scientifically that Jesus existed, they certainly couldn't establish scientiifically which words were his.
The complete lack of any supporting data is the reason that the Christian community gets so excited every couple of years when yet another major forgery surfaces. They are clutching for ANY evidence of any kidn that Jesus existed.
If you look at the Christian accounts in the Bible you will discover that they are filled with obvious historical inaccuracies (people out of time, people and events switched in time, supposedly major national scale events that there is no other evidence for, blatant misunderstandings of Judaism, even places that didn't exist).
While lack of existence can't be proven, the evidence is overwhelming that Jesus was a myth created by Paul approximately 60 years after the supposed events -- and Paul (despite his claims otherwise) was never a Jew. Paul never even visited Judea/Israel. Most of the famous documents about Jesus (the major Gospels) were written hundreds of years after the supposed events (and contrary to Christian claims, couldn't have possibly been written by John, Mark, Luke, Matthew, Thomas, or Judas, unless those guys lived for several hundred years).
None of this has any impact on the value of Jesus as a central myth in the Christian religion. But claims that Jesus was a historical person are laughably unscientific and unhistorical. All attempts to parse details of an imaginary being's life story are absurd as anything other than a rleigious exercise.
I hope I haven't offended anyone who wants to believe that Jesus really existed.
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Johnny J
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| Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:50 am Post subject: |
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prntrkmt:
Although, I do not contradict your statement that Jesus never existed (at this point I am more unsure about that than I have ever been), I do disagree with some of the facts that you assert.
Given the assumption that Jesus was born between 6 and 4 B.C. (based on New Testament sources), and given the assumption that he was crucified between 30 and 33 A.D., the first writings of Paul (and of the present day New Testament canon), would have occurred between 16 and 21 years of the crucifixion of Jesus. The best biblical scholarship places the very first text of Paul (and of the New Testament) at 51 A.D. (for Thessalonians) or 49 A.D. (for Galatians). Not 60 years after as you say.
Also, please let me know what makes you say that Paul wasn't a Jew, or never visited Judea. This is news to me and I would like to examine it. I have no reason to believe that he wasn't a Jew, and that he never was in Judea.
The first Gospel, Mark, is placed at the very earliest at 70 A.D. The Gospels, of course, are very important because they (with Acts) are the only texts that describe in detail what Jesus supposedly did and said. In stark contrast, the Epistles of Paul make references to Jesus in the vaguest, most abstract way. Paul couldn't make concrete statements about Jesus because he never met him. What this means is that the first texts that reference Jesus were written 20 years before the first texts that chronicle what he did in a detailed, meaningful way. Meaning that Paul could have created and molded the Jesus 'story' any way he wanted to. As you put it, it was "a myth created by Paul."
70 A.D. for the first Gospel is key in another way. This means that it was written after Nero's persecution of the Christians (64 A.D.), and the martyrdom of Paul and Peter, as well as the suppression of the first Jewish rebellion, and the destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple (66 - 70 A.D.). The christian community of Jerusalem (as distinct from Paul's gentile christian community) was destroyed as well. The Jerusalem church was composed of Jesus' apostles and all witnesses to his crucifixion. So, 40 years after the crucifixion, Peter and Paul are dead, the Roman christians are dead, all the witnesses to Jesus' life and death are dead, all lost in the mists of time, and THEN some people get down to the business of writing down what really happened during Jesus' life and death? Hmmmmmmmm.
Anyway, my point is that I agree with you in essence; however, it appears that some of the numbers you quote are in error.
I would like to get your thoughts on this.
Cheers,
!!joHnNY j!! |
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Ferre
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prntrkmt
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| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 3:53 am Post subject: Re: Burning Shiva: The Cruci-Fiction / An Easter Special |
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| stokes wrote: |
| All of Christianity revolves around and relys upon the events surrounding the Lord's crucifiction. |
Actually there is a huge group of Christianity that doesn't include any crucifiction.
The first kind of Christianity was the kind now called Gnostic Christianity or Gnosticism. The earliest surviving writings from the Gnostic Christians were found near Cairo and are from approximately 350 B.C.E. There is strong (but not conclusive) evidence that Gnosticism split off from Hermeticism around 700 B.C.E.
The Gnostics believed that some individuals were holy enough to receive special or secret knowledge of the divine (gnosos).
Through this secret knowledge, the holy person could interact with the Christos (literally, annointed one).
The gnostics believed that the physical/material world was fallen and in a perpetual state of sin (hence the cause of disease, crime, war, poverty, and other suffering).
They believed that the Christos was a spiritual only being, because in order to be pure and good, the Christos had to be a spiritual only being, as anything in the physical world was inherently impure and sinful.
The Gnostic Christians sought to live their lives so that their spirits would unite with the Christos after death.
No crucifications of any kind.
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prntrkmt
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| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 4:07 am Post subject: |
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| Johnny J wrote: |
prntrkmt:
Given the assumption that Jesus was born between 6 and 4 B.C. (based on New Testament sources), and given the assumption that he was crucified between 30 and 33 A.D., the first writings of Paul (and of the present day New Testament canon), would have occurred between 16 and 21 years of the crucifixion of Jesus. The best biblical scholarship places the very first text of Paul (and of the New Testament) at 51 A.D. (for Thessalonians) or 49 A.D. (for Galatians). Not 60 years after as you say. |
I have heard dates similar to the ones you cite. I used the most conservative numbers. The dating of Paul's writings is not exact. It could be the date you mention.
| Johnny J wrote: |
prntrkmt:
Also, please let me know what makes you say that Paul wasn't a Jew, or never visited Judea. This is news to me and I would like to examine it. I have no reason to believe that he wasn't a Jew, and that he never was in Judea. |
There are several Jewish rabbis and scholars through the ages who have pointed out that Paul couldn't possibly have been a Jew.
Start with all the quotations Paul makes from the Torah are from a well known (and mistake-filled) Greek translation. Jews didn't use that Greek translation and looked down on it.
Contemporary written evidence makes it clear that Paul used the Greek translation because he couldn't read Hebrew. All Jewish boys at the time were required to demonstrate a rudimentary ability ot read selected passages from the Torah in Hebrew. All of the Pharisees were highly skilled at reading the Torah in the original Hebrew.
Further Paul makes many mistakes about Jewish religion and culture. While some mistakes are clearly propoganda and could have been intentional by someone knowledgeable about Judaism, many of his mistakes simply display a lack of personal knowledge about Judaism. Some were common misconceptions of the time, some are just random errors.
On the matter of ever having been to Judea, again Paul makes too many mistakes about geography and culture for someone who actually visited the area in person.
I don't have the name handy, but I'll get you the name of a British Jewish scholar who has written several books giving a Jewish reaction to the Christian Bible.
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Stokes
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Johnny J
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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prntrkmt & Ferre:
Thanks for the info.
Ferre: There's a lot to digest on the site. But I'll take a good look at it.
prntrkmt: Those are good points on Paul. It would fit in with a lot of inconsistencies of his behavior. I have to ponder it some more.
Thanks,
!!joHnNY j!! |
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zero
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| Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:40 am Post subject: |
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I have already read a lot of the evidence presented here, the best bieng the site Ferre cited.
The cold hard science of it is that a man can not die and come back to life and that people in those days were easy to fool.
I do not believe Jesus ever lived. To date I have never seen a piece of good scientific or historical evidence that suggests he did. Even if he did live he was a lazy illitterate foul con of a man. It was never recorded that he ever wrote one paragraph about anything. If one was the son of god and wanted to get his message through for years to come, does it not stand to reason he would have wrote something down somewhere for people to read?
The story of jesus doesnt make sense on so many levels it is hard to even discuss it properly.
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IntrepidEZJ
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| Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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www.nobeliefs.com
Some of the best research I have seen. |
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prntrkmt
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| Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:48 pm Post subject: Re: Burning Shiva: The Cruci-Fiction / An Easter Special |
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Thank you. That was the author's name I was searching for.
I didn't know that he had died. Sad.
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prntrkmt
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| Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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| zero wrote: |
| If one was the son of god and wanted to get his message through for years to come, does it not stand to reason he would have wrote something down somewhere for people to read? |
It seems to me that the obvious universal language would be mathematics. Scientists looking for conclusive proof of alien intelligence have been searching for radio signals with mathematical patterns.
Imhotep claimed that mathematics was the language of the divine. Imhotep was a priest of Ptah and best known as the chief architect of the first successful ancient Egyptian pyramid. He also invented trigonometry and the technique of triage for dealing with mass casualties. He was author of one of the earliest surviving medical books, which dealt with how to diagnose and treat major categories of trauma injuries, including broken bones.
Even today you find scientists continueing Imhotep's search for a single mathematical equation that accurately describes all natural phenomenon.
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